ROMANS 13 PART 1

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

I hear this passage being quoted in Churches very often today and used to justify the most heinous things imaginable, like the torture our govt performs on so-called "enemy combatants". But what does this passage of Scripture really mean, and how does it apply to us today, specifically here in the USA ?

First of all, we need to establish who the "power" is that we must submit to. Here in America, we dont have a King or princes or rulers; what we have is the CONSTITUTION. The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land. EVERYONE must follow and obey it, from a private citizen all the way up to Generals, Senators and even the President.

The Constitution is what authorizes our govt, and it derives its power "from the just consent of the governed." We the People are the power behind the US govt AND the Constitution. So who is the power that must be submitted to here in America ? We the People are; the Constitution is a reflection of our national will, and the agency by which that will is to be enforced.

So let me clear up the misconceptions right now and tell you UNEQUIVOCALLY that neither Barak Obama, nor Nancy Pelosi, nor John McCain or any other Politician, Police Officer, Soldier, Senator or Five Star General is our ruler or the "power" to which the Bible refers. In fact, it's COMPLETELY the other way around - THEY are OUR servants. They are there to do OUR will. WE hire them, and WE fire them. So this idea that we must OBEY every word of our elected officials is not only ludicrous but un-Biblical as well.

The Bible tells us to "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's." You must understand that YOU and I ARE Caesar here in the USA - NOT the politicians. They themselves admit with their own mouths that they are our servants. The Bible tells us in the Book of Proverbs :

Pro 30:21 For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear:
Pro 30:22 For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat;
Pro 30:23 For an odious woman when she is married; and an handmaid that is heir to her mistress.

Everything about the way things are in America today is completely backwards; everything is turned upside down. It is our GOVERNMENT that is in violation of Romans 13 and NOT us. WE ARE THE PEOPLE. We are the sovereigns here - and what we allow to take place is OUR fault.

Is it the will of We the People to bomb Iraqi cities with depleted uranium, a deadly radioactive material with a half life of five hundred million years ? This will render their land polluted and unsafe FOREVER. Already they are having children born with massive birth defects due to the D.U. munitions our SERVANTS are using on those they have deemed "enemies." What is Christian about that ? My fellow Christians, DO NOT support this govt.

Is it the will of We the People, or our God, for our SERVANTS to strap people down to boards and pour water over their faces until they literally begin to drown ? They call that "waterboarding": I call it TORTURE. This isnt just done once or even twice; it is done REPEATEDLY, for HOURS. And it is an experience that is repeated again and again and again during the captivity of the poor person unfortunate enough to fall into our govts hands. Some of these "detainees" have been tortured this way HUNDREDS of times. I can tell you with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that a govt that does such things has NOTHING to do with God and is NOT "of the Lord".

Lets look more carefully at the text of Romans 13 and see if there is any clues there to help us sort out this SEEMING contradiction :

"rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil."

When you do what is good today, our govt usually hinders or persecutes you for it. They dont quite live up to this saying, now do they ?

"do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"

Once again, I ask you: does our govt praise those who do good ? Or do they honor the men who are most willing to STRAY from the Bible's teachings ?

"he is the minister of God to thee for good."

Is the govt ministering to me for good ? Are they concerned about my welfare when they spray chemtrails across the skies or when they feed me unlabeled "genetically modified" food ? Are they concerned about our children when they shoot them up with toxic "vaccines" ? When they develop a new plague like AIDS or SARS or the newest Pig/Bird/Human Flu, is it out of the good of their hearts ? Everyone knows by now that the FDA and all the other agencies that are supposed to "protect" us DON'T. So if you ask me, they AREN'T ministering to my good.

"he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Here's another good point the Bible brings up. Does our govt truly go after and punish the evildoers of this world ? No, they feed us a patsy every once in a while and just continue to let the REAL criminals go free. Just like how Bush turns around and burns a few of his little cronies for the torture stuff, but now we know HE authorized it and knew all about it. Do you really think the little petty thugs they arrest are the ones responsible for all the crime ? Take a closer look - follow the MONEY - for "the love of money is the root of all evil". But we all know that when the rich commit crimes, they go away scot free. Our govt fails yet AGAIN.

"they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing."

This one is almost laughable. Not a single one of them attends continually upon their duties. Half of the time they dont even show up to vote. They have absenteeism levels that would of had you or I canned LONG ago. All they do is go on vacations and travel around on OUR dime doing all kinds of shady, secretive things. They dont represent US. We have taxation without representation AGAIN in this country. They get rich off their stocks and their back room deals while WE get to starve in the "New Economy". Nice.

"Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

This is really the key to the whole thing : TO WHOM IT IS DUE. A Godly government does ALL the things Romans 13 talks about. No, they arent perfect - it is run by humans, after all. But the pattern will be more one of MEETING the requirements of Romans 13 than of spitting in the face of them.

Its time to realize that WE the PEOPLE are the government and that our current representatives are NOT working in our best interests nor do they care what our will is. Our SERVANTS are ruling over us to our own harm.

I sum it up this way,

Follow and obey whom you serve. As for me and my house, we serve YHWY.

Lazarus wrote:I sum it up this way,

Follow and obey whom you serve. As for me and my house, we serve YHWY.

Me and mine too

I'm a Christian, no denomination. How about you, bro ?

Same here brother, no denomination but a follower of Jesus Christ. I'm glad to hear you don't belong to any denominations. Organized religion limits truth and it limits what God reveals over time to His chosen people. Denominations often mix the Word of God with the traditions of men and therein lies the problem. We can decide to follow God or follow man. Personally, I choose to follow God and not man.

Scripture actually proves my point (that God reveals more of His plan over time). Have you ever studied or read the book of Daniel? If you have then you might remember that God sealed up the book of Daniel until the time of the end. Why do you think God did such a thing? Why wouldn't he want Daniel or other prophets of His to know some of the things that were sealed up? We all have specific roles to play in this great drama and each of us, throughout history, has been given information on a need to know basis, so to speak.

Anyway, denominations force people to chose traditions over the Word of God and that is exactly the reason Jesus called the pharisees a den of vipers and sons of Satan. They taught the Talmud, the traditions and magics of Babylon, not the teachings God gave to Moses. The Talmud was considered a higher authority than the Torah, if you can believe that. Most people have no idea what kind of sick and twisted teachings are contained inside the Talmud. If they knew it would shock them.

I'm glad you joined Lazarus ! I agree with everything you just said. Denominations are a sure sign that a Christian is still CARNAL, as it is written :

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1Co 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
1Co 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Amen. Good to have you here bro

You know something, I never really connected that specific verse (1Co 1:12 & 1Co 1:13) with my belief on denominational Christianity. I never connected the two in a meaningful way, meaning I've never used those two verses to prove my point, or our point, that denominational Christianity is dangerous because it teaches the traditions of men in place of Jesus Christ. I appreciate the post and actually learned something useful!

I'm glad you feel that way, I hope you won't regret it later (me joining the forum). I have to admit that I can seem to be difficult or arrogant sometimes because I tend to look deeply into certain subjects. I just like to know about what I'm talking about. I use fact and evidence to back up my arguments and that is often misunderstood and taken for arrogance. When I know I'm right I know I'm right, and some people can't handle that. They really have a problem with the truth, not me. It just takes people a little while to realize that. Once the anger goes away and brain begins to work they usually come around.

Thanks bro, appreciated.

P.S.,

As to the scriptures above, all of them. What happens when the strife Paul is talking about is created by people who refuse to adhere to the clear Word of God? In other words they argue against a very clear understanding of scriptures in favor of a "new teaching" or a different Gospel?

The doctrine I follow comes directly from Jesus Christ who said, "If you love me do my commandments" - paraphrase.

"Not by works but by faith, show me a man's works and I'll show you his faith!" - James.

Hey, I dont mind if you speak your mind here bro thats why it's here ! Some people think I'm arrogant and rude too. In fact I've been called a lot worse than that !

What I value most is the TRUTH and I see that you are a man who knows the Truth. So yes, I'm definitely very glad you're here. I'm sure we wont agree on EVERYTHING, but so what ! Thats why I made this forum so there can be an exchange of ideas. So dont worry about offending me or anything like that bro just speak your mind !

Whats your position on the "rapture" ? I am of the opinion that we are not going to be gathered together to meet the Lord in the air until AFTER the tribulation, as per Matthew 24 :

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What are your thoughts ?

Yup.

The rapture is a Jesuit created deception to hide the fact that both the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation specifically mention the Catholic church in regards to the Antichrist power. The Catholic church will play a large role in the end time events.

I agree, No PRE-TRIB RAPTURE will occur.

I did a long post on Infowars.com citing specific historical prove showing that both Futurism and Preterism were created by the Jesuits to counteract the original protestant view on both Daniel and Revelations. If you like I'll post it here and you can tell me what you think about it?

yes, post it I would love to read it.

You might have to break it up if its really long because for some reason forumotion wont let me increase the wordcount of the posts more than 255 words. That sucks I know but it's free and I really cant beat that price

No big deal, breaking it up won't be too difficult. Are you sure the limit is 255 words and is it possible to increase it? Talk to the people who are hosting you. Even though it is free I don't see why they would limit text yet allow pictures and video. Text is very lite on memory, know what I mean?

Yeah I thought the same thing. I'll figure it out eventually I'm just not that tech savvy. I didnt even realize there was a word count limit until I tried to post the whole text of the Constitution and it kept telling me I could only go up to 255 words. I tried to change it in the Admin Panel but couldnt figure it out. I'll keep working on it

Can you get into contact with the people hosting the forum?

lazarus wrote:Can you get into contact with the people hosting the forum?

I think so - I'll try contacting them by e-mail. I would have done it already, but I was camping the last couple of days. I'll send them an e-mail and see if they can help.

Peace