Revelations

I want to create this topic, not just for the book of Revelations, but for all scripture pertaining to the end times. I have much to learn and will greatly appreciate opinions and "lessons" on this topic. The book of Revelations is a bit confusing to me. I would like to start with Revelations 18:

"1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

I read this chapter and I think of the USA. Have I got it wrong?

No, you have it exactly RIGHT

IMO, Babylon the city is NYC. There are so many parallels. I know alot of people say it is Rome, but I would say that America IS Rome. We have the same system of govt and even use the same symbols, etc. When Daniel described his fourth beast, it was different from all the other beasts. That is because the fourth beast was Rome, and Rome was a REPUBLIC, not a Monarchy like the other three kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece). The present system of nation-states, especially republics, will continue until the time of the nations (gentiles means nations) comes to an end. That is when the NWO one-world-government will be set up, and then there will not be any more nations. I will have to come back to this later and explain exactly why I think NYC is Babylon, but right now I have to go do some things. But I am very glad you brought up this topic Battle Hymn it is a subject I am VERY interested in and have been since childhood. I understand SOME of Revelation and I will attempt to break it down on the forum later. I am also very interested in learning from others what they know about Revelation since it is a very hard book to understand and having multiple points of view is always nice !

Peace

I'm still gonna do that NYC/Babylon thing but I was thinking about the four horsemen and wanted to share my thoughts so far. This is my analyzation of the first horse, the white one. I dont believe the white horse and its rider are to be interpreted as the AC as I have heard many times. This is what I believe :



"...I saw, and behold a white horse (A): and He that sat on him had a bow (B); and a crown was given unto Him (C): and He went forth conquering, and to conquer." (D).


A. The rider upon a white horse is none other than Christ Himself; as it is written,

"...I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war."

- Revelation 19:11

B. The bow is yet another indication that the person pictured here is Christ; for it is written of Him in the Scriptures,

"Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the King's enemies; whereby the people fall under Thee."

- Psalm 45:5

C. The crown is the crown of Righteousness, given unto Christ upon His Resurrection from death; as it is written,

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing."

- 2nd Timothy 4:8

D. He went forth conquering, and to conquer refers to the preaching of the Gospel around the world, as it is written,

"...This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

- Matthew 24:14

Thank you for these replies. They help me try to make sense of it. I was viewing Babylon as the entire USA, or more specifically, our lifestyle. But what you've said makes sense. I also think your first horseman statement makes sense, but I must admit that I know very little of the subject. Please continue to share your views. Thanks!

Hi brothers,

I'm not so sure you're going to like to hear what I have to say (and the quotes I'll be using by a man I respect) but I hope you'll seriously consider these words and think deeply on them.

The Book Unsealed

The third (and deepest) level of knowledge found in Daniel is the architecture of apocalyptic prophecy. The prophecies in Daniel conform to a structure or pattern that controls their meaning. The exciting thing about this structure is that it is also present in Revelation! In other words, when you understand how the architecture of Daniel behaves, you will understand the architecture in Revelation because it is the same architecture! This architecture produces four rules (methods of interpretation) that govern the interpretation of Daniel and Revelation.

These four rules are like combinations to a safe. When these four rules are applied to the interpretation of the prophecies in Daniel as well as Revelation, a marvelous result occurs. The prophecies make perfect sense just as they read! This point is extremely important. Portions of Daniel and Revelation have been a mystery for 2,600 years and then suddenly, the words make sense just as they read! What causes this change to occur? When the architecture of Daniel is understood, the contents of Daniel can be understood.

When the four rules found in Daniel are applied to each line of prophecy in Daniel and Revelation, a comprehensive story unfolds that is completely harmonious with everything the Bible has to say about the ways of God. Furthermore, all of the details God gave in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are in perfect harmony and synchrony with each other. The four rules force all of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation into a chronological matrix of layers that are orderly in nature.

To visualize this matrix, think of the seventeen* prophecies in Daniel and Revelation as a wedding cake of seventeen layers! The larger pieces are at the bottom of the stack and the smaller pieces are on top. The "toothpicks" that hold the seventeen layers together are events that unite and align the seventeen layers in Daniel and Revelation into one grand story. The toothpicks are necessary because two or more layers can describe the same prophetic event! Because the same event is described in two different ways – in two different layers – a precise alignment of the prophecies is not only possible, but essential to understanding the big picture.

The Value and Importance of Rules

A beginning student of Bible prophecy may not appreciate the necessity of a valid set of rules of interpretation (or hermeneutics) at first, so hopefully the following parallel will help you understand why rules of interpretation are essential to prophetic study: Scientists achieve advances in the study of genetics at the cellular level. By studying various cells within the human body, they have been able to determine how certain cells operate. In more and more cases, they have been able to predict the behavior of cells under controlled circumstances, because they now know some of the secrets of proteins and the DNA structure. Scientists are constantly testing for "consistent behavior" within their studies of cells. Once the behavior of a specific cell is understood, cell behavior can be changed or influenced through drugs compounded to produce the desired results. Pharmaceutical companies spend billions of dollars on this type of painstaking research because they know that a genuine cure for most diseases must occur at the cellular level.

Consistent Behavior

In a similar way, the architecture in Daniel is distilled through a careful study of Daniel’s prophecies. Because the visions within Daniel behave in a predictable way, this behavior allows us to decipher things about the meaning of prophecy that we could not otherwise know. For example, here is a consistent behavior that occurs throughout the book of Daniel. Each of Daniel’s prophecies have a beginning point and an ending point in time, and the events in each prophecy occur in the order in which they are given. This behavior may sound simple, but it has profound ramifications. Consider the results of violating this self-evident rule. If the events given within each prophecy of Daniel do not occur in their given order, how, then, is the order of events determined? This question brings up an even greater question.

Does the Bible speak for itself or must it have an interpreter? After many years of study on this question, I find the Bible has to speak for itself and the Bible has to be its own interpreter. The constant and predictable architecture within Daniel’s prophecies is the basis for Rule One. This rule is: Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning point and an ending point in time and the events within each prophecy must occur in the order they are given. Keep in mind, I am not inventing this rule. Instead, I am expressing a consistent behavior that recurs without exception throughout the book of Daniel (as well as Revelation).

When the fulfilled elements of each prophecy in Daniel are aligned with widely published historical records, the validity of Rule One proves true every time! The prophecies in the book of Daniel cover more than 2,600 years so far. This great span of time contains everything necessary to validate the four rules that spring from the architecture of Daniel. As a bonus, the book of Daniel provides a historical foundation for certain prophecies in Revelation. Because some of the prophecies in Revelation run parallel to the prophecies in Daniel, we can link them together and establish the timing of events mentioned in both books. So, the discovery of Daniel’s architecture, like the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, enables the Bible student to resolve many prophetic mysteries that would otherwise be impossible to solve.

How Can the Bible Tell Us Things We Don’t Want to Believe?

Knowingly or unknowingly, every student of prophecy implements a method of interpretation to support his prophetic conclusions. The problem, of course, is that invalid rules will not produce valid conclusions. For example, some people believe, "A day in Bible prophecy always equals a year." A rule cannot have an exception, for if it does, who has the authority to determine when the rule should be applied or ignored? So, if we accept the idea that a day for a year rule is always true, then the 1,000 years of Revelation 20 would have to be 365,242 years in length. (365.242 days in a year x 1,000 years = 365,242 years)

For many reasons, I believe the all-inclusive day-for-a-year rule is invalid. There are places in Daniel and Revelation where God measures time according to the Jubilee Calendar where a day represents a year (like the seventy weeks of Daniel 9), but there are also places in Scripture where God measures time in literal units (like the 42 months in Revelation 13:5). In fact, Rule Four tells us when God is using a day for a year and when He is using literal time. The point is that rules force the conclusions. If our rules are flawed or inadequate, our prophetic conclusions will be flawed.

Popular eschatology today is "a nose of wax" which expositors manipulate for political, religious or personal reasons. Millions of people believe things that have no truth in them. If an idea is reasonable, then it is believable. However, we cannot ignore the other side of the coin – that reasonableness does not ensure validity. For thousands of years, people believed Earth stood still and the Sun traveled in its orbit around Earth, until Copernicus came along and ruined a very reasonable idea.

Rules of interpretation are vitally important to this study of prophecy because students of Bible prophecy need a method whereby the Bible can tell us things that we do not want to believe. We want a valid process whereby the Bible can tell us things that run contrary to everything we believe so that our understanding of God’s truth can increase. Therefore, we need rules to test our conclusions and beliefs. In short, valid rules of interpretation allow Bible prophecy to say all that it has to say, and they help us listen to God’s truth so that we might learn of His plans. Daniel: Unlocked For The final Generation, written by Larry Wilson.

This post continues below with the conclusions and some severely important information you need to consider.

Private Interpretation

Any interpretation of prophecy which does not conform to a stated set of valid rules is classified as a "private interpretation." The word "private" in this context does not mean obscure. Millions of people can believe and endorse a private interpretation (and they do). A private interpretation is an interpretation which does not have an external means of validation. In other words, a private interpre-tation cannot be tested and validated by an impartial jury given a set of stated rules.

This emphasizes our need to understand the apocalyptic architecture in Daniel. There is one architecture in Daniel and Revelation and there is one truth. Looking for that truth is the joy of every Bible student. Even if we have the right rules of interpretation, the likelihood of reaching the intended meaning is not guaranteed, but it is greatly improved! (It is one thing to have the right formula, but it is another to correctly solve the problem.)

The Four Rules

When the rules of interpretation are valid, the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation will make sense just as they read, because the Bible is its own interpreter. On the other hand, a private interpretation requires an interpreter. An interpreter stands between the Bible and its meaning; whereas, valid rules explain the meaning without a go-between. Consider the difference. A private interpretation prevents people from independently arriving at the same conclusion without the coaxing of an interpreter, but a valid set of rules enables people to arrive at similar conclusions without knowing one another.

Many Christians believe whatever their leaders say about prophecy without actually studying the conclusions for themselves. Lay people usually "go along" because their church endorses a particular view. Because the subject of Bible prophecy is complex and complicated, and the average Christian does not study prophecy, it is easier to follow the leader. Of course, the mysteries of Bible prophecy will vanish during the Great Tribulation because everyone will see the evidence of what is predicted in Bible prophecy. However, until the Great Tribulation begins, we need a set of valid rules to guide our prophetic faith. If our rules of interpretation are valid, the books of Daniel and Revelation will form a unified story. A comprehensive explanation of God’s ways will unfold in a drama that is in perfect harmony with all Scripture!

Since the following four rules will be used frequently throughout this book, you may want to bookmark this page. After several years of study and discovery, I am excited to share with you the combination that unlocks the books of Daniel and Revelation. The four rules are:

1. Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning and ending point in time and the events within each prophecy must occur in the order they are given.

2. A fulfilment of apocalyptic prophecy occurs when all of the specifications within that prophecy are met. This includes the order of events outlined in the prophecy.

3. Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

4. God reckons apocalyptic time in two ways: (a) a day for a year, and (b) as literal time. The presence or absence of the Jubilee calender determines how God reckons time.

These quotes were written by Larry Wilson at Warning! Revelation is About to be Fulfilled!

Okay! That was quite a mouthful but I hope you'll take the time to read every word. The most important concept I want you guys to understand is that private interpretations of Apocalyptic Prophecy cannot be trusted and are not biblical. Either YHWY is the God of confusion or He is the God of order and truth. If we as followers of Jesus Christ cannot trust the Bible itself (The Word) to interpret itself then who are we to trust? Should we follow a guru or a spiritual leader with their private interpretations or should we trust the Word of YHWY?

All due respect to the both of you, Babylon cannot be NYC or the United States of America because the Bible clearly states what Mystery Babylon is:

"Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. . . . This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. . . . [The angel said to John] The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

Lucifer will set himself up in the place of God as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the Earth. Lucifer's church-state is the great city that will rule over the kings of Earth. His theocracy is the great prostitute.

Both of the above paragraphs were taken directly from Larry Wilson's web site. (www.wake-up.org). For some reason the link to the video seminars is not working, try this link: Video Seminars

Now something that I feel is important to explain to you guys. I'm not following a guru in the form of Larry Wilson. Through my own studies I have come to realize that these things are true. I have researched the information my self and have reached the same conclusions that Larry has. This strengthens the premise that the book of Daniel has been unsealed. Again, these aren't private interpretations, we're listening to what the Bible itself has to say on the matter. The Bible doesn't say that NYC or America is Babylon, it clearly and unambiguously says that Mystery Babylon is "The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

Either we except the authority of Scripture which is the Word of YHWY or we go our own way and turn our backs on God, professing ourselves to be wiser than our creator, Yahushua Messiah. I hope what I have posted (especially the four rules of interpretation embedded into the book of Daniel) stimulates your mind and changes your thinking about apocalyptic prophecy. The book of Daniel was sealed until the time of the end. This means that the unsealing of Daniel heralds the coming of the tribulation and the return of Jesus Christ! It means that we are the last generation and that both the books of Daniel and Revelation were written specifically for us. We need to understand these things deeply because we'll be living (hopefully) in the time of the great tribulation.

Army,

The rider on the white horse is not holding the weapon commonly known as a bow and arrow. The Greek word used in this verse is toxon which is a winner's ribbon made of fabric and given to someone who has been victorious, like in a race or a contest. The mention of a laurel crown (the Greek word [Stephanos] is not the crown of a king or a ruler.

During the lifetime of Christ, in the 1st century AD, Christ and the Apostles spoke Koine Greek as a secondary language, the New Testament was written in Koine Greek, and the ancient Games in Olympia Greece were in full swing. The New Testament Koine Greek contains many words and phrases concerning the Olympic games of Biblical times, because they were familiar household terms that powerfully communicated God's truths by comparing the known and familiar terms of the Olympic Games to the spiritual truths of God's Word.- Bob Jones.

The original Greek must be studied in order to properly understand the specific meaning that God is conveying to us. A Stephanos was the wreath that was given to the athletes (that symbolized victory) who won their particular event during the ancient olympic games. The "winner" or "overcomer" was given a crown ( a laurel wreath, Stephanos NOT a Diadema) similar to that of those ancient athletes. It was not a Diamdema (A crown of rulership that a king would wear) but an award given to the followers of Jesus Christ symbolizing their efforts in overcoming Satan and the sins of the world.

It is mentioned in the same verse as toxon is and further proof that the rider on the white horse is NOT carrying a weapon but is actually bearing rewards for the faithful. People have been mistranslating this Greek word (toxon) for a very long time. It has nothing to do with warfare. It has everything to do with the followers of Jesus Christ overcoming the temptations of the world. Remember when the apostle Paul talked about fighting the good fight and running the race to completion, Paul said that he had overcame the world through Jesus Christ and was going to receive his reward. Do you remember? Well, that is partly what the rider on the white horse is doing.

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2Ti 4:7-8.

This whole subject has got me very excited because all of us can learn some serious truth by logically discussing these things. I'm sure there will be some disagreements but if we allow God to speak through His Word we'll all come to the same conclusions.

-laz.

P.S.,

Battle Hymn, Which translation of the bible are you using?

I use KJV because I believe it to be the closest translation available today to the original text. I also have an NIV that is a better "subject reference" study bible, but I always compare the passages to the KJV translation. Through a devotional that my wife gave me, I've become aware of a translation that is, in my opinion, an abomination. It is the MSG (the message) translation. In fact, I don't even consider that an interpretation, let alone a translation. Of the few verses I've compared, it is a drastic perversion of the Bible.

Concerning your posts...thank you so much for sharing this with us. Now, please forgive my ignorance. But I have some questions. Why do you say the book of Daniel has just recently been unsealed? Hasn't it always been in the old testament? And if I understand correctly, you are saying that the woman does not yet exist; that she is the great city which will be a theocracy established by Lucifer. (Reminds me that Obama is pushing to make Jerusalem an "international zone".) If that is the case, then doesn't that city need to do an awful lot of buying from merchants and living in luxury before we even approach the end times? Again, please forgive my ignorance. I'm just trying to understand.

Thanks.

Hi Battle,

I just added some very important information to post #8. Please go back and re-read my post to better understand where I am coming from. I actually wrote post #8 for Army so he would better understand the purpose and mission of the rider on the white horse.

I also use the KJV for serious study and research when dealing with the Scriptures. The NIV is not necessarily a bad bible but it is filled with mistranslations and completely omits some passages of the Scriptures. The NIV is decent for those of us who are new to the faith because it simplifies some of the language which makes it easier for some people to comprehend. In other words, it contains enough information to lead people to Jesus Christ but it doesn't faithfully translate the more detailed and very important passages of scripture that are paramount in order to understand apocalyptic prophecy. The Message is exactly as you say, an abomination that subtlety uses occult nomenclature in order to deceive the followers of Yahushua Ha Mashiach.

Concerning your questions, please read (or re-read my entire posts on this subject) making sure to pay very close attention to anything that references the book of Daniel. Most of your questions are answered in those posts. After you've carefully read them we'll get into specific details. This isn't something any of us can breeze through, that's why I took the time to write in detail on this subject (and why I quote Larry Wilson, who does a great job of explaining these things). You won't be able to make any sense of Revelation without first deeply understanding the themes and prophecies contained in the book of Daniel. Both Daniel and Revelation are inseparably linked together and are really one harmonious expression of apocalyptic prophecy.

Don't apologize, there's nothing to forgive. Asking questions in order to increase your own understanding is a sign of intelligence, not ignorance. I'm very pleased that you want to understand the meaning of these prophecies and that you're willing to research and study them in depth. Like I said above, we'll get into the details after you've re-read the above posts. It is very important that you understand the fundamental truths contained within the explanations that have been posted above. Once you fully understand them we can move on and discuss some of the specific principles contained within the whole of the message.

-laz.

Hmmmm very interesting. You've given me quite a bit to ponder over !

I'm not quite sure if you are saying Babylon the city doesnt yet exist, or if you are saying it is another city (i.e. Rome, Jerusalem, etc ?) I have always felt it was NYC for many reasons. I will try to explain in detail the reasons for my theory :

1. According to Revelation 17:3, the city of Babylon was located in the wilderness. Rome hasnt been a wilderness for a very long time, ditto for Jerusalem. But when John saw this vision, the N. American continent was exactly that - a wilderness. Since the Indians didnt build cities and such. So I have always thought that John was seeing the NYC area before NYC was built.

2. Babylon is a seaport, actually its the preeminent seaport on earth. NYC fits this description perfectly.

3. Babylon is the great city that rules over all the earth. NYC is the home of the UN and is called the capital of the world. And certainly no one could deny America's dominance of the rest of the world.

4. Babylon is described as a place of great riches. NYC, via Wall St., etc, is the center of the world's economy.

5. Babylon is described as a whore dressed in the garb of royalty and priesthood but in reality filled with the blood of the martyrs. This reminds me of America very much, since it claims to be a Christian nation but in reality is a cesspool of fornication, violence and corruption, and leads the entire world in the production and consumption of pornographic materials. (An interesting side note: 666 in Latin is "sex sex sex". I'm sure you have noticed this phrase plastered all over the front of certain wicked places.)

6. The Bible says, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great" (2x). It also says "In one hour is thy judgement come". I think these statement s have striking paralells to the events of 9/11. "Fallen, fallen" - Two towers. "In one hour" - both buildings were hit within the span of one hour. Now, I do not think 9/11 was the literal fulfillment of this prophecy but I do think its too similar to be coincidental. In my opinion it is a foreshadowing.

7. Babylon cant be Jerusalem because the Bible says Jerusalem is spiritually called Sodom or Egypt. Babylon could describe Rome with all its idolatry, but I would have to reiterate my earlier point that today WE are Rome. America uses all the symbols and systems of Rome. Also, the Rome we know today isnt a world power or a busy seaport.

I'm not saying I know for CERTAIN that my theory is correct, but I do think it holds up pretty well to the prophecies and descriptions given in the Bible. However I am always willing to be corrected, and I must admit that I could be wrong. But personally I would bet all my money on America being Babylon. Just looking at the streets of DC and all the pentagrams, owls, etc that they form is enough to convince me that this country is aligned with satan. But, maybe in the near future another city will begin to fulfill the Bible's words more closely than NYC does. One more thought - Babtlon is said to sit upon 7 mts and alot of people think of Rome because Rome is built on 7 hills. But the Bible says mts, not hills, and it later goes on to explain that the mts are kingdoms. It is my belief that the 7 mts are :

1. N. America
2. S. America
3. Europe
4. Asia
5. Africa
6. Australia
7. Antartica

So in my opinion the 7 mts symbolize the world-wide rule of Babylon.

What do you guys think ?

Peace and Blessings

Army,

Before we move on to discuss Babylon I want to hear what you have to say about the first of the four horsemen. Specifically in relation to what I wrote about the message and mission of the rider on the white horse. Your response is important because it will pretty much dictate how you look at apocalyptic prophecy and the Bible in general. As I said before we can either except what man has to say or we can except what God has to say. It is a fact that the Greek word toxon has been mistranslated to describe a bow (a weapon of war) when the Greek word clearly means something totally different. The same is true concerning the word crown. The Greek word used in the ancient manuscripts is Stephanos NOT Diadema. Both of these words are very specific in meaning and you cannot confuse one with the other.

Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic and Koine Greek. We speak English. We know what these words mean because the ancient peoples of that time had dictionaries and archaeaologists have discovered those dictionaries. Either we except their definition (the people who spoke the language during the time of Jesus and left us their definitions of what their words meant) or we except theories from theologians and other "teachers" and what they thought the words meant. Who would you trust? The people themselves who lived and walked and breathed the same air as our Savior or people with theories who have no direct experience?

Think carefully about these things my brother.

-laz.

I definitely see your point and agree. I didnt know the word was toxon, to my embarassment but now that I have looked it up I see you were right. But isnt this rider on a white horse still Christ ? I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with the Gospel being preached in all the world, and then the end will come. I agree that the people who speak the language understand what they meant better than we do. I also realize that Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic words often have more than one meaning, sometimes several different layers of meaning are conveyed by one word. It was my laziness in not looking up "bow" before I posted that, I was just excited becasue I had found the Scripture about Jesus' arrows being sharp in the heart of God's enemies and my brain said "Bingo !" before I had properly checked the bingo card as it were LOL .

Peace

Hi Army,

Yes I believe the rider on the white horse is Jesus Christ. I also agree that the mission is the preaching of the gospel to the whole earth. The 144,000 will finish the preaching of the gospel to all the earth and after they have done their job the end will indeed come. The beauty of the Scriptures is that God chose the languages (Greek & Hebrew) specifically because they were so technical and clear, very unambiguous unlike English. If I'm remembering correctly Koine Greek has around 30,000 different words and Hebrew has something like 10,000 but I can't say that is definitely true. A good friend of mine told me that once.

I also realize that Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic words often have more than one meaning, sometimes several different layers of meaning are conveyed by one word.

I'd agree and disagree with your above statement (I'm schizophrenic ). Seriously, when we're dealing with Greek words they have more than one word to describe the many different aspects of what they are describing. Take love for instance, the Greeks had three words for love, Philo, Eros and Agape. Each word means love but each word describes a different kind of love. That's why Greek is such an awesome language, especially for Scripture. That's why I think God chose it because the words nail down very specific meanings. Now Hebrew seems to fit the other spectrum of your statement. One word seems to have more than one definition. I don't have an example ready but the Hebrew word for hate comes to mind, it can mean a few different things, all a little different.

So that's why I'd say your statement was correct while also saying that I agreed and disagreed. It depends on which language we're talking about in order for me to agree or disagree. Army, I don't want you to agree with me because we're friends but I do want you to keep an open mind and study some of the things I've posted today. I've been down the road you're on already (I used to think America was Babylon also and had a few other similar beliefs that you listed in your post on Babylon) so I know where you are coming from and I also know why you might be a little hesitant to give it up your beliefs. I didn't want to believe something else when I was in your position either until I thought about what truth really is...and it has nothing to do with what we want to believe and everything to do with what God wants us to believe.

Just keep and open mind and let's discuss and debate these things. I don't agree with everything Larry Wilson says and I respect him greatly. He's lived twice as long as I have and has studied the Bible almost all of his life. He makes a distinction between his personal opinions (speculation or theories) and what the Word of God teaches. When I first learned about all of the different Bible translations available it really confused me. When I was a babe in Christ I used to read a lot of commentaries, trusting that the people who wrote those commentaries knew more than I did. That was a mistake on my part. It clouded my thinking and left me with preconceived notions about prophecy. It was heard to tell where they left off and I began. So I threw out all of those commentaries and began studying the word on my own. Then I found those Larry Wilson videos and was amazed at all the knowledge this one geeky looking little guy had somehow obtained.

His discoveries were similar to mine and once I learned more about what he was all about (he doesn't belong to any denomination of Christianity or Church) I began listening and learning from him. If I was in doubt about something I went to my own Bible and worked it out. Thus far I've learned way more than I ever imagined. But in order to learn I had to drop my ego and become a student again. I don't trust anyone brother and if I recommend something or somebody it's usually spot on. I hate being misled so I'm very careful who I vouch for and what I teach other people. I've been burnt too many times to continue playing the fool.

-laz.

I want to say one more thing Army. I do think certain things you wrote can be looked upon as a foreshadowing of what is to come (like 911 and a few other things) but I'm careful not to link them to the prophecies found in Daniel and Revelation.

We'll get into some really specific areas of Scripture and after that I think you'll understand where I'm coming from much better. You are right, the seven crowns do represent kingdoms but they don't represent political kingdoms, they represent religious kingdoms. We really need to start this whole subject off with the book of Daniel and then get in the book of Revelation after discussing and studying Daniel.

-laz.